Building Trusted Partner Relationships and Creating Raving Fans with Craig Zimmerman and Jason Makevich
Welcome to
Anthony Carrano:the IAMCP Profiles and Partnership. The podcast that showcases how Microsoft partners and IAMCP members boost their business by collaborating with other members and partners. I'm your co host, Anthony Carano. And in each episode, I'll be talking to some of the most innovative and successful partners in the Microsoft ecosystem. The International Association of Microsoft Channel Partners, otherwise known as IAMCP, is a community of Microsoft partners who help each other grow and thrive.
Anthony Carrano:Members can find and connect with other partners locally and globally and access exclusive resources and opportunities. Whether you're looking for new customers, new markets, or new solutions, IAMCP can help you achieve your goals. We'll hear their stories, learn from their experiences, and discover the best practices and strategies they use to increase customer loyalty and grow revenues. Whether you're a new partner or an established one, you'll find valuable insights and inspiration in this podcast. We hope you enjoy this podcast and find it useful and inspiring.
Anthony Carrano:If you do, please subscribe, rate, and review us on your favorite podcast platform. And don't forget to follow us on social media and connect with us on our website, www.profilesinpartnership.com, where you can find more information, resources, and opportunities to partner for success. Thank you for listening, and now let's get started with today's episode. Before we dive into our interview, let me ask you a question. How do you leverage your membership in the IMCP to find and develop partner relationships that will help you grow your business?
Anthony Carrano:Finding the right partner can be challenging, but it can also be rewarding. In fact, according to a recent study by IDC, Microsoft partners who collaborate with other partners generate almost 2 and a half times more revenue growth than those who don't. That's a huge difference, and it shows the power of partnering. So how do you nurture and build trust relationships that will help you grow your business? And how do you ensure success for your customer and your respective businesses?
Anthony Carrano:These are some of the questions we'll explore in this podcast with the help of our guests, recent global and America's P2P award winners who are also experts in partnering. They'll share their stories, challenges, and successes, and give you practical tips and advice on how to partner for
Anthony Carrano:success. Are you ready to join us on this journey? Then stay tuned because we have a great show for you today. Our guests are award winning Microsoft partners, Craig Zimmerman, the chief operating officer at Big Cloud Consultants, and Jason Makevich, the CEO at Greenlight Cyber.
Anthony Carrano:Let's hear what they have to say. Well, I wanna welcome Craig and Jason, to the podcast today. Really appreciate you guys joining us. So let's start off. Craig, why don't you start off and tell us a little bit about yourself?
Craig Zimmerman:Sure. So I live in Asheville, North Carolina where our company is based. CEO COO of Big Cloud Consultants. And we're a Microsoft 365 partner as most IAMCP members are. And we are, you know, we specialize in partner to partner relationships.
Craig Zimmerman:And that's kinda how we got here today.
Anthony Carrano:Excellent. And then how long have you been with Big Cloud Consultants?
Craig Zimmerman:Since the beginning. 8 years.
Anthony Carrano:Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah.
Anthony Carrano:Okay. And, Jason, how about yourself?
Jason Makevich:Yeah. Thanks for having me. Jason Makevich here. So, yeah, I'm the founder and CEO of Green Light, here in Southern California. Born and raised.
Jason Makevich:Started the company in 2010 as a MSP back when MSPs were kinda just starting off in the SMB space. Been a Microsoft partner, you know, this whole time, and made a transition, to to be an MSSP over the last, few years. So, it's been it's been a great journey, and and we love our partnerships. Love love being part of this program with IAMCP, and, I'm excited to talk to you guys today about the successes we've had with with Big Cloud.
Anthony Carrano:When did you guys both join IAMCP?
Craig Zimmerman:I'm gonna say 2018.
Jason Makevich:Yeah. I think it was 2019. Yeah.
Anthony Carrano:Okay.
Jason Makevich:About a year before we all ran home.
Craig Zimmerman:Let's not talk about that.
Anthony Carrano:Wanna congratulate you guys both on winning the IAMCP P2P Solution Provider Award. And I know Rudy's gonna get into and, you know, ask you some questions about that story. Before I do, what are some of the company's areas of specialization?
Craig Zimmerman:So we specialize in SharePoint. That is really our bread and butter. Right? So we have and that's where partnering has worked really well for us, honestly, because because it's such a specialty, we've had other companies who where it's not their specialty come to us and say, hey. We've been working on this.
Craig Zimmerman:We can't do it. We need help. And we're able to accomplish it in you know, what they've been working on for weeks, we can accomplish in a couple hours because that's our expertise. So we do other things, Teams phones, and things like that, but SharePoint is definitely bread and butter for us.
Jason Makevich:Yeah. I can attest to that. We we work with Big Cloud all the time. When and whenever we need anything, SharePoint and Teams phones, and anything kinda in that whole ecosystem. And they're just, they're absolutely one of our best favorite partners, for it.
Jason Makevich:They're really, really good at that stuff. And then for us, really, cybersecurity, especially for the SMB market, making cybersecurity reasonable for SMBs. And, you know, being a Microsoft partner and having come from the MSP world, the talent that we have on the team allows us to bridge a lot of gaps. Right? So not only internally do we have that capability of doing a lot of the kinda IT related functions that might be adjacent to cybersecurity, but the partner network that we've built over the years is, is maybe, our our our most important, asset, because, partners like the big cloud, and we have many others that are just, truly outstanding at what they do.
Jason Makevich:No one is good as Big Cloud, of course, but, but,
Craig Zimmerman:And that's why we love Jason. Yeah. Thank you.
Jason Makevich:But but yeah. I mean, gosh. Our partner network is has been a real key to our success here.
Craig Zimmerman:And I'll just follow that up by saying part of at least part of our relationship is if there's something that we don't do and I'm not sure if Greenlight will do it, I'll reach out to Jason and go, hey. I have this opportunity. Is this something you can help with? And it's those types of partnerships where you have someone to go to 1st, I think, to at least ask that question that make a huge difference. I have no problem calling Jason or anyone on his staff and asking, hey.
Craig Zimmerman:Here's the opportunity. Can you help? And we get that back from them all the time.
Anthony Carrano:If I Rudy, if I can jump in with this one, I want to piggyback. There's what I find fascinating about this story is I mean, obviously, Big Cloud is, you know, based in, you know, North Carolina. Greenlight is, you know, based in California. Obviously, I know Greenlight started as as an MSP, and usually you know, typically, a lot of MSPs will work more regionally. How did you guys connect, you know, across coast and working with and collaborating with these with customers?
Craig Zimmerman:So it's actually a funny story that Jason and I just realized again a couple weeks ago, which was we actually met through a third person who we had both been looking for a different partner, and we found someone else. And he actually connected Jason and I and said, hey. It'd be good if you guys met. And the funny thing is he is now totally out of this business and haven't heard from him in ages. But Jason and I not only struck out a great partnership, what turned out to be a great friendship.
Jason Makevich:Yeah. And and that's the thing. I mean, Craig touched on it. Like, you know, he'll reach out if he's not sure if it's something we do, and then that can lead to well, you know what? Actually, we don't do that, but we have someone great that does.
Jason Makevich:And that's happened many times as well. Right? So it's just having that culture in an organization to be really open to working with other folks and having a circle of folks you trust. The relationships that that we have are everything. Right?
Jason Makevich:But, yeah, the way we met was was really in this, in that same spirit of, you know, we're we're connecting with people. I'm always very open to connect with people. So when this, third party said, hey. You should meet this guy, jump at it. Right?
Jason Makevich:And, you never know. In this case, it worked out beautifully.
Craig Zimmerman:And I think we we found we work the same way, and we treat clients the same way. And what what's even funnier to your question, Anthony, is, you know, we're across the country from each other. How did we meet? Our joint client that we won this award for is actually in neither of our states. They're in Georgia.
Craig Zimmerman:Ah. And so you know? And I think the first time Jason and I met in person was when we went to the client.
Jason Makevich:Oh, wow. Yep. Yeah. I mean, Craig and I both, our companies, we we have clients all across the country. We have a few we just we just got a client in Japan of all places.
Jason Makevich:But, yeah, I mean, especially on the security side, you know, the local kinda regional thing is not is not something that that's important because the on-site necessity is very rare if if if we ever need to do that. Now with Teams and Zoom and everything else, there's so many ways to to work. And, of course, with with Craig and his company being in SharePoint, I mean, you know, everything we do is in the cloud now, and, so we're not we're not tied to a a region like most MSPs are because of the field service they need to, perform.
Rudy Rodriguez:It's great to hear how you guys met. And, you know, you didn't meet to each other till you met at the client. So in getting started with this story, why don't you why don't you tell us a little bit about the client? You don't have to give us a name. Maybe a little bit about the size of the company, the industry, tech implementation, what challenges that we're facing, and how you came about to selecting each other to to work on this deal.
Craig Zimmerman:Sure. So the clients in Atlanta, they had actually called us a couple years ago about something that we don't do. It was they called us for Dynamics, and we found the right Dynamics partner to bring in. And we kept the client, and they've been very happy with the Dynamics end. And they got to the point where we had been talking to them about taking over their licenses and managing that and as their CSP, But their current MSP was just not doing a good job for them.
Craig Zimmerman:And I think that puts it mildly. I mean, they held them ransom for stuff. It was not a good relationship. And so as they told me more about that, I kept telling them, no. You need to bring in someone else because this is not the way it should be.
Craig Zimmerman:And, when they finally agreed, I had introduced them to Jason probably a year before
Jason Makevich:Mhmm.
Craig Zimmerman:We actually did something and didn't go anyplace. And then I kept talking to them, and finally, they said, okay. We're ready to make the change. And so we brought Jason back in because that was part of the relationship we had and how we work together. And so and we're very careful, I think, and I wanna mention this, not to step on each other's toes.
Craig Zimmerman:So there's stuff that Jason does that we do. There's stuff like he can manage their licenses like we can. We could do some of the security stuff, but we don't. And it's like, okay. This is our lane.
Craig Zimmerman:This is your lane. This is why the partnership works because we stay in our lanes for this client. Right? The client probably has, what, 200 seats, maybe? 2, 300 seats?
Jason Makevich:Yeah. Yeah. And it does fluctuate. It's an interesting business model where they have these seasonal workers. So the sometimes a client has, I don't know, a 100, a 150.
Jason Makevich:Sometimes they have, like, 350
Craig Zimmerman:or so. You know? And sometimes they have 30. Offseason, they have 30.
Jason Makevich:Yeah. That's true.
Craig Zimmerman:And, honestly, part of the way we got to manage their licenses was they had said to us, listen. We need you guys to adjust them. We don't adjust licenses. So we need you guys to provide a report, and different people get different reports. That was part of earning their business.
Craig Zimmerman:But I think when when we got there with Jason, the great news was they needed a lot more stuff than they thought. Right? So there was a huge hardware investment. The interesting thing about that was Jason told I was there for the meeting where Jason told them, and and they were skeptical at first, not about the need, but just about understanding why they need to replace all this hardware and what was going on. And I think both of us being there gave them that security feeling of because I had worked with them for a couple years, and the first thing the manager did was look at me.
Craig Zimmerman:And I went, no. Whatever he's telling you is what you need to do. And now I think we both have that relationship with the client.
Jason Makevich:And they're so much better off. I mean, Craig, there's no overstating how bad things were for them. They had data loss that they had experienced.
Craig Zimmerman:Couldn't get their passwords.
Jason Makevich:You couldn't get passwords. Wow. And then when I get out there, I flew out there. And the incoming IT company wouldn't give the client their passwords, which anyone in IT knows that, like, no matter the situation, you can't do that. It's their property.
Jason Makevich:And that's in a world a world of hurt. But, of course, I fly out there and it looks it's starting to look like there's nothing I'm gonna be able to do. You know? So I was looking at flights home, but we were able to work things out very diplomatically, well, somewhat, you know, as much as we could. In
Craig Zimmerman:For cash. I mean, let's be honest. The the old It was the old MSP held them up for money. Yes.
Anthony Carrano:Wow.
Craig Zimmerman:Which both of us were were so incensed at just because that's not how we do business.
Jason Makevich:Yeah. But I I actually served as kind of a mediator, for that deal and and and, you know, helped make that happen so that we could, you know, start working on things. And to Craig's point, we get in there, we start looking at everything, and then it's such bad shape. Their equipment's so old. And, yeah, it was kinda like, alright.
Jason Makevich:Well, we have a couple options. We can run this stuff more into the ground than it already is, but you're gonna spend so much every month. You're gonna have a lot of problems. Or we can redo things here. We can do it right.
Jason Makevich:And this is a real investment in your business. And and it worked out. It worked out. And they're so much better off. They're they're raving fans of both of us.
Jason Makevich:They love us. Right. Nice. And they might and they're not the easiest client.
Craig Zimmerman:No. They're they're tough. But you know what? They're tough, but they are I I don't wanna say tough, but fair. They're I mean, they are, but they're tough with high expectations, which I think is good.
Craig Zimmerman:It's good for both our companies because we want to meet their expectations or exceed them. Mhmm. So I think it actually is good for us.
Jason Makevich:I like those clients. I like the ones that have high expectations, because that's how we operate here. And I don't I I like them a lot more than the clients that don't really care about it. They don't wanna talk about it. They don't wanna think about it.
Jason Makevich:Those ones are harder because, you know, if if our job is to go and and help them, and they their job is to bury their heads in the sand, you know, how do you even have a conversation? So many of those out there, right, in the SMB space. So, yeah, this is a good client.
Craig Zimmerman:And it
Craig Zimmerman:took some convincing. I mean, there's no you know, it took and I don't mean convincing from the sales side. It took convincing as to, okay, first, I need to be comfortable with you, and then Mhmm. I need to fully understand why this is an issue. Mhmm.
Jason Makevich:And our okay. So speaking of partnerships, there's no way I could've gone flip flown into Atlanta, and in day 2 or 3, said, hey. You guys need to spend 6 digits on equipment. There there's no way they wouldn't have probably ran me out of that building with a shotgun. But because of the relationship they already had with my partner, with Craig, that made a world of difference.
Jason Makevich:So it's not just the convenience factor of, oh, we get more opportunities or anything. No. That that that carried so much weight. And Craig's right. We were we were both there when I when I, you know, had to tell them, hey, you guys are kinda in for it here.
Jason Makevich:And they looked right at him right when I hit right when I told him that. So you know the kind of trust that that they have in Craig and Craig's business, which says a lot about Craig and and Big Cloud. But it's also it's a huge benefit to me because it helped me tremendously. Having this partnership, it it it allowed me to do my job much more effectively because then, you know, otherwise, yeah, the client might have been like, okay. No.
Jason Makevich:No. No. You just flew in here. Now you're telling us we have spent all this extra money. How convenient.
Jason Makevich:Get the heck out of here. Right? But that wasn't the case, and it was, I think, very much because of the partnership that Craig and I have.
Anthony Carrano:Well, Jason, I'm glad you bring that up because one of the things, just as I've been listening to this story, that's really fantastic. And I wanted to ask this specifically for Craig, is because, you know, there was you you mentioned where, you know, the the client had asked you about, like, for a Dynamics partner, and then, you know, they get stuck. They need help with an MSP. What did you like, how did you develop the trust relationship with the client that they were willing to rely on you for, like, the different vendors and seek you out really as a as a trusted adviser to you know, for things outside of your area of expertise?
Craig Zimmerman:That is a great question. I think, you know, when they originally came to us, I think what we have found more and more over the years is you say Microsoft partner, and people think you can do everything. Right? It doesn't matter to them. Dynamics, SharePoint, it's all part of Microsoft.
Craig Zimmerman:They don't know. We're and we're in this industry, so we deal with this every day. Right? But like Copilot, very exciting for us, not as exciting for the clients. Right?
Craig Zimmerman:They're interested, but it's not like it was for us. Right? So I think this is the same thing. Right? It's very,
Craig Zimmerman:it's it's very how can we get the client what they need and still keep the rest of their business? Because I think, you know, you don't wanna refer it out for everything Mhmm. And just turn it over to someone else because I still want the licensing. The licensing is a big part of this. So and I still want that relationship.
Jason Makevich:You do wanna refer it out because if you don't, they might go they might have to go to market. And now who are they talking to? Right? So to protect your own interest in what you have there, you gotta have a partner network. You gotta know, okay, who's on speed out who can help me here.
Jason Makevich:And you just gotta have that mindset of having those relationships and and being very open, to those and and really cultivating them too. It's not just there for your convenience. I mean, it's a relationship that, like anything, kinda require that effort and and are worth it. You know?
Craig Zimmerman:And I
Craig Zimmerman:think that's the thing. We just wanna do the best we can for the client. Right? We wanna make sure that the client has what they need Mhmm. In the end.
Craig Zimmerman:And my feeling always is if it doesn't get us business today, it will in the future. If you do the right thing, they'll be back. And so in the case of Dynamics and what's really funny as I'm thinking about it is the 3rd party that introduced Jason and I, he's the one I called on for this project originally, for the Dynamics part of it. That was a disaster, and so we wound up finding another company. But, you know, the client after a little while and I it wasn't a big secret.
Craig Zimmerman:I mean, we said we're bringing in this partner. One of the things that I try and make sure to do is I don't want the client, if they went to the partner directly, to pay less. So whatever I work out with the partner, I try and make it so that, okay, the client is gonna pay us slightly less than they may pay you directly, and we all get some kind of piece of that. But in that, we're all making some money. Right?
Craig Zimmerman:And then the client never feels like if they call you directly, they're getting a better deal. So we worked that out with the Dynamics provider. That worked great. And then as time went on and they went from little dynamic stuff to, okay, now we wanna we wanna roll out field service. And I said, well, I'll find a partner for that.
Craig Zimmerman:And they were like, that's fine. Because in the end, the client said to me, and he has said this more than once, we want one neck to ring, and it's yours.
Rudy Rodriguez:Yeah.
Craig Zimmerman:But I totally get it. It's like they just wanna call one place and go, alright. How do I do this? So even when they onboard new users, they they send them to us. There's a piece that we contact Greenlight for.
Craig Zimmerman:Right? We've automated it. So Greenlight gets an email in their ticketing system, whatever they need to do that piece, But then it's all done. The client's just dealing with 1 person, right, and one company. And whatever they need, it's getting accomplished.
Rudy Rodriguez:Yeah. So I've got a I've got a follow-up question here. Because both of you have mentioned that partnering is a big component of each other's business. So, you know and you've mentioned, you know, you build trust relationships with each of your clients, etcetera. So what's your criteria for selecting a partner?
Rudy Rodriguez:And then how do you go about it? Do you discuss, have you ever had it sat down with a partner and discuss the rules of engagement? Because that's always a key part of building a good trust relationship with a partner. Do you do that in in your engagements when you're trying to select a partner? How do how do you, what's your process look like?
Jason Makevich:I mean, I can speak to it first. I don't think I have a SOP for it. I think it does kinda vary, but I think it's a couple things that'll drive that. Right? So one is, hey.
Jason Makevich:I need a SharePoint partner. Would my client needs help with SharePoint? The way I would go about finding that, if if I didn't already know Big Cloud, is I would reach out to a couple of folks in that space that I that I trust, that I know that I like and that I trust. Right? I'm not gonna Google it.
Jason Makevich:I'm not going on any sort of marketplace to look for anybody. I'm gonna reach out to the folks I trust, and that trust transfers. Not a 100% of it, but a great deal of it. Right? So if I I don't know.
Jason Makevich:If I need help with Dynamics, I might call Craig Craig, you know, who do you have this that I can trust for for dynamics for this project? And if Craig says, oh, you gotta work with so and so, they've been outstanding. Now I trust that person. You know? And then it's like, okay.
Jason Makevich:Then we engage. Right? Then it yeah. At some point, there would be some rules of engagement. But I think a lot of it is, at least for Craig and I understood.
Jason Makevich:Right? Like, Craig brought me into this one opportunity. Craig said, hey. We're doing their licensing. We're doing SharePoint.
Jason Makevich:We're doing their their cloud stuff, and we need your help on on kinda all these things. And so that's enough for us. Right? We've it's right in our system. It's documented in our system.
Jason Makevich:So my whole team is aware that this is these are the lanes we're in for this client. And it's it's Craig's it was Craig's opportunity, so we would defer to him on what, you know, what he wants us to do. And this happens a lot with our partners because we get a lot of partners that bring us in much more than the other way around. And so we we always make sure it's very clear, but, I don't I don't know that we have a a real defined process because I think each one has its own unique qualities, each relationship.
Rudy Rodriguez:So how much does IAMCP play in your build in your P2P relationships?
Craig Zimmerman:Yeah. I mean, I would say I agree with Jason before about the standard operating procedure, and there is no there is no one for finding a partner. Right? There is no one right way. But the the thing that I do in addition to calling people I know is I will look at the IAMCP member list to see and look for companies that I need.
Craig Zimmerman:Because my first inclination is the people in the IAMCP operate the same way that we do and have the same code of ethics. And they wanna remain there, and they're not going to they're gonna do they're gonna work the same way. Right? They're they're not gonna steal our part of the business, and I'm not gonna steal their part of the business. And I say this all the time when we work with partners.
Craig Zimmerman:You can only screw a partner once. Right? You can only steal business once. That gets around very quickly. It's not a good reputation.
Craig Zimmerman:It's not and that's what we have. And so we just don't do that. I mean, I honestly, we have a partner who we did a whole bunch of work for them. We didn't get paid. I'm 90% sure they got paid by the client.
Craig Zimmerman:And if not, and they didn't bill the client, that's on them. Right? But I hate having to go after people for that, but they owe us a chunk of money. The first thing I did was look to see the
Jason Makevich:checks in the mail. I
Rudy Rodriguez:They stated as a state check. That works too.
Craig Zimmerman:Yeah. You know, we can just ACH now. That's good. It's the one. But, no, I think the the point is that the first thing I did after that was look in our IAMCP member list to make sure they weren't an IAMCP member because we got screwed.
Craig Zimmerman:I don't wanna do that. And those aren't the those aren't the people that I want to be part of the organization that I really enjoy being a part of because I wanna know that the people on the list work the way we do.
Anthony Carrano:So I know there's there was a phrase. I'm gonna start with you, Jason, because you you used the phrase a couple of times, and I got really turned on to this concept early in my business career. You used the phrase raving fans. Right? Mhmm.
Anthony Carrano:Or turn them, excuse me, decline into a raving fan. And so, obviously, you guys shared a little bit about the, you know, the the challenge that I mean, just the horrific situation that customer was in. And what are some maybe if you don't wanna answer, like, the details, you you can answer 1 of 2 ways. Either what are some things you specifically took to take that client who was in a really, you know, difficult situation, and you mentioned that they were somewhat of a challenge to work with and turn them into a raving fan, or or if you'd say, I wanna, you know, maybe talk more abstract, and what are some, some general, steps and tips that you would give to folks listening, what they can do if they were in a similar situation?
Jason Makevich:Yeah. I mean, I'll I'll start by by saying, you know, in the case of of this of this client, you know, Craig touched on the fact that the the prior IT company didn't have a good relationship with them. And so and they were held hostage. I mean, when it comes to, you know, getting their passwords, and, that there was data loss that that occurred that the IT company really, I think, was a cause of, not just out of negligence, but, well, I don't know. But, nonetheless, it was horrible.
Jason Makevich:Right? And and so these these people were were just beyond frustrated. And I don't think they knew to what extent, honestly.
Jason Makevich:Yeah. It was a lot of, it was a lot of secrecy around, you know, on that. It was just it was very, you know It was bad.
Anthony Carrano:Yeah. And just for the record, that other MSP was not an IAMCP member. Right?
Craig Zimmerman:Correct.
Anthony Carrano:Okay. Good. Yep.
Jason Makevich:Yep. Yep. So the most important thing for me was understanding what the client was going through and understanding what that meant to them. If I don't understand how my client is feeling and what their motivations are, I'm gonna be at best mediocre at my job. Right?
Jason Makevich:And I've seen this time and time again with service providers where they focus so much on their features and their products and their solutions. And it's like, hey, this is how we do it, and we're gonna do it, and trust us, and it's fine. And that's not how we operate. I don't think you have a whole lot of raving fans if it's very one-sided of a relationship. I think what's better is to get to know the clients to really to really understand what what their experiences, what their motivations are, and what really, what's important to them.
Jason Makevich:And if we can solve for those things and and make them feel better about how things are and and just more comfortable with it and trust, you know, trust us, and and all that. And you earn that, and it takes time. You know? They weren't raving fans day 1 with us, but they they gave us the opportunity to earn that trust. And and, yeah, they they love our our team, and they love the leadership we have here because we're very open.
Jason Makevich:We we like to, you know, share with them what's going on, but not too much. Just we know they're very busy. So we we cater it to them. We have some clients that wanna get a ton of information every month, and they get a bunch of reports. We have some clients that would never wanna see that stuff.
Jason Makevich:And and it's like pulling teeth to get a meeting. Right? And you gotta know what's important to each client. And and to a degree, you do have to force certain things because we're in the business of of, you know, managing and mitigating risk. Right?
Jason Makevich:Mhmm. Pretty important way of conversations. But at the same time, some folks really wanna talk forever. Some folks have a want it super short and sweet. Some want a in person meeting somewhat over Zoom.
Jason Makevich:Some just want a phone call and some would rather have an email.
Anthony Carrano:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Jason Makevich:Understanding each client and then catering to them, and that's what we do. That's what we focus on here is even in our solution delivery, we don't have just some package solution.
Jason Makevich:And we have no we have no 2 clients the same. We have we're we don't have 2 clients that have the same products or, you know, services. Everything we do is is very bespoke. And it's very much against the kind of best practices of an MSP, but that's fine because, you know, as an MSSP in in the world we're in, we need to be able to be very flexible with, but still have our our our standards and and our best practices and the frameworks and all that. But it really is just about listening to the client and really paying attention to be very in tune to what's really, really important to them and making sure you're solving for that.
Anthony Carrano:Mhmm. Now I know the the client because you mentioned previously that, you know, they were, you know, obviously, you know, they were really badly burned by, you know, their prior, you know, MSP. You're being brought in, you know, from Big Cloud, and, obviously, you know, Big Cloud's recommendation and just, you know, the relationship that they have, you know, with Craig. I'm really but I also know at the same time, you had mentioned that they had a lot of doubts about having, you know, an MSP from another state. So what are some, specific things that you did right out of the gate to help them overcome those doubts of working with somebody who's, you know, clear across the country?
Anthony Carrano:Or you answered the other way is what would be just some some, you know, specific not actually I don't wanna do a specific tip. I wanna say maybe, like, what's, like, one thing that you that somebody who's finds himself in a similar situation, what is it like you absolutely have to do right out of the gate to help that customer overcome those doubts?
Jason Makevich:Well, in in this case, the the customer being in a different state and
Craig Zimmerman:Yeah.
Jason Makevich:Craig Craig needing us to to provide, you know, IT services, field service, all of it, and we're not local. So the first thing we did is a lot of due diligence around finding a great partner that's local to that client, that could be on call for us. That could be our hands and feet when we need it. And we did. Actually, we talked to a few, but, ultimately, we're very selective.
Jason Makevich:And and we found a great team down there that that we work with, have such a great relationship with them now. They brought us into a bunch of clients now that we're doing the cybersecurity for them. So it's turned into a great great partnership, but they're they're they're just doing hands and feet over there, which they've done a lot of, especially in the early on, you know, part where we had a lot of, infrastructure refresh. But that that was a concern not only for the client. It was concern for Craig and I.
Jason Makevich:It's like, how are we gonna be able to handle build service if I'm not gonna put a tech on a plane every time someone's printer doesn't work. Right? So, yeah, that that was a a a absolute requirement that we got in front of right away.
Anthony Carrano:Nice. I know aside from the initial, were there any other challenges during the engagement? And if so, maybe what were they, and how did you guys work together to overcome it?
Craig Zimmerman:So you don't know the client, so there's always a challenge during the engagement. Really, I mean, we just call them clients. Uh-huh. Honestly, sometimes I like the challenging clients a little better because, you know, they ask questions that make you think about something, or it sends you in a different direction that it's out of my normal comfort zone. Right?
Craig Zimmerman:And I wind up researching something else. I, I like the easy clients that that, hey, you want the tough ones to deal with.
Craig Zimmerman:I didn't say a lot of them because somehow nobody else in our company wants to deal with
Craig Zimmerman:them. They all come back to me. What's nice though is, in this case, especially, having Jason to be able to go, were you on this thread? Did you see this?
Craig Zimmerman:What'd you think of this?
Jason Makevich:So Yeah. We commiserate a lot. It's great.
Craig Zimmerman:Yeah. But, you know, it's really it comes back to trust. It comes back to trust with the client. If the client trusts you, which took a long time for us, it wasn't that it wasn't a a right away thing. Right?
Craig Zimmerman:They actually got referred to us from someone else who didn't do only did SharePoint, right, and didn't do, and they got this lead. And so that's how we got this client. Right? And so it's really about how do you develop that relationship with the client. And like Jason said, you have to tailor you have to know your audience.
Craig Zimmerman:Right? And so every client's different. And so, like, on the SharePoint side, you know, when we do a project or we do a build out and we talk to a client to you know, today and we finish something and then we talk to a different client tomorrow, we explain to them, no. We're still gonna do discovery because, you know what? What we built yesterday is not gonna be for you.
Craig Zimmerman:It's not gonna meet your needs because your company is different and how you work is different. And so we need to understand that going in. And I think if you do and you you have that ongoing reputation with the client, then it will it it it develops over time. Right? What was the question, Anthony?
Anthony Carrano:That's right. Rudy, you you mentioned that you got a question?
Rudy Rodriguez:No. I I'm tired of talking to these guys. But, no. I I think it's great. You know, partnering can be very challenging at times, and it's it's great when you build those those relationships.
Rudy Rodriguez:So when when you partner together on on any opportunity and, by the way, those are service opportunities when you have a difficult client. Those are service opportunities.
Jason Makevich:Yes.
Rudy Rodriguez:So the the challenge can be you know, one of the things that you we all want to do and having run these businesses before is, does our service increase the customer satisfaction, and does it help them increase their revenue? What are what are the metrics that you guys look at in servicing, during a partnering opportunity?
Craig Zimmerman:It depends on the client. Right? So I think in this in the case of this client, I don't know that we were going to enhance their revenue so much as stop it from going away if their technology didn't work, right, or if they got hacked or Mhmm. I mean, any number of things. So in this particular case Yeah.
Jason Makevich:To a degree, I think they're more efficient now in a lot of ways. Agree
Craig Zimmerman:with them. I but they're also a bit
Jason Makevich:more resilient, more stable. Yeah. No downtime.
Craig Zimmerman:Yeah. And we've looked at their other systems, and we know like, there are a couple other systems that need to be replaced, and we're discussing it with them. They're getting there. Right? But it takes time.
Rudy Rodriguez:Well, Jason, you brought up a good point on on customer efficiency because that also you know, to to Craig's point, that does drive revenue. The more efficient you are and, you know, I I know I used to teach my teams. It's like, hey. Let's measure this if we can, because it's it's one of those great things when you're having a quarterly business review or something like that with a client that you can go over. And as an MSP, you know, you you talked about the reports and stuff, and they don't wanna hear that, you know, a lot of the things.
Rudy Rodriguez:But it's always nice to review the gains that you've had, you know, in in in satisfaction, in revenue, etcetera. As, I made a joke about it with a client yesterday. Clients just wanna review the bills with you. Right? And there's other things that you need to review.
Rudy Rodriguez:And what are the things that we look at? The customer satisfaction, revenue, there's several metrics, and and our teams can always bring us that information, which is good to review with a client. And so in partnering, those are the kinds of things to continue to have discussions, you know, because, you're always looking for ways to make your own organization better, make the client's organization better, and and the partner organizations. You know, you gotta have these discussions. So do you guys ever get into some of those things to to really discuss, you know, when you're talking about partnering opportunities?
Craig Zimmerman:To be honest, I don't think we have because we look at it as, in the end, is the client happy with what their are their needs being met? Right? So, like, the the client we partnered on, they perfect example. They don't wanna talk metrics. They don't care.
Craig Zimmerman:They don't wanna they don't wanna spend any extra time talking to either of us, and they like us. But they don't wanna spend any extra time talking to us, because my conversation always ends with them telling us how great we are. And so, I mean, that part's a good part of the conversation to have. Right? But they don't wanna spend any more time with us than they need to.
Craig Zimmerman:So, yes, it's the bills and what they look like, and then it's, you know, here are upcoming projects for the off season. And that's pretty much it. They don't so we haven't discussed those metrics because the client, in this case, that particular client doesn't care.
Jason Makevich:We do have some clients. I mean, in in cyber risk, quantifying risk is important. Some of our clients, want us to to help them at that level. Some of them not at all. We just, you know, get in and try to protect them, and that's it.
Jason Makevich:But those that do I mean, we have systems in place that help us, you know, try to quantify, the the financial what the financial losses would be and everything. Then, of course, that starts getting into conversations around cyber insurance and and transferring to risk there and all of that. Right? So there's a lot of those conversations happening more to do with the the risk management aspect. And because we have systems in place to help us quantify those risks, it makes it doable.
Jason Makevich:But when it's so nebulous, like IT uptime and even that, like, there are ways to quantify. But a lot of it is also very, like, hypothetical. Right? You know? And let's have a lot of data points to really go off of and be pragmatic about your, you know, your your quantification.
Jason Makevich:It would be very, it would it would come across maybe nebulous. And and then and then, you know, how much credence is are the numbers really gonna have? Or is it is the customer really gonna put much weight on that? And so it does vary, but I think there are ways to do it. And when you can quantify, any value to a client, if there's a way, Rudy, you mentioned, if we can, this way.
Jason Makevich:Yeah. Absolutely.
Craig Zimmerman:We should. Yep.
Jason Makevich:Yeah. So and that's something that, I mean, we could probably do even better job of. I think we all could. Right? Anyone listening would would probably think the same.
Jason Makevich:I think that's a huge, huge takeaway here. It's a great, great point to make, Rudy.
Rudy Rodriguez:Yeah. And and to your point, Jason, I think you do. We all manage our conversations based on the client's behavior. Right? And and that's what you do because you'll have clients that wanna learn know everything, and then you have clients that go, like Craig mentioned.
Rudy Rodriguez:Let's get out of here get out of here, guys.
Craig Zimmerman:No. Know your audience. That's always in my mind is know your audience.
Rudy Rodriguez:But since both of you have since both of you have talked a lot about partnering, what advice do you have for companies who are looking at partnering? Because that's one of the things, you know, Microsoft pushes. We all can't be experts at everything that we used to do back in the 1990s. Right? If we were all experts at everything in the 1990s
Rudy Rodriguez:And then the world changed. Right? The cloud came along, and everything changed. And and so what advice do you have for people who are looking at partnering, who know they they may need to to partner? Because you've brought up some very good points, and I think we need to discuss those.
Rudy Rodriguez:What advice would you have for people to you know, who are looking at possibly partnering?
Jason Makevich:My advice would be if if you're, say, the business owner and you're an introvert and you don't really like to get out there and talk to people and go to these events where you're gonna meet other partners or anything, hire someone that you trust that is good at that stuff. Because, I mean, for me, I love doing that stuff. I love going to IAMCP meetings and shaking hands and, you know, all that and getting to know people. It's it's a one of my best parts of the of the month, right, to go and do that. I love connecting with with Craig and other partners that I have and and you know?
Jason Makevich:But not everyone does, and I've seen that a lot. I've good friends, colleagues of mine that have their own shops, their own MSPs, or or they're just, you know, independent consultants, and they're busy working all day, and then they go home, and that's it. And they don't really, you know I'm, like, one of 3 people they'll talk to. And and, yeah.
Craig Zimmerman:And I do think it's gotten worse since everyone works from home a lot more. And, I mean, not that I'm not for that. I love working from home and, you know, and but I think that the communication has changed from not being in in a group setting periodically.
Jason Makevich:Yeah. I think so. But I think it's also that personality type. Right? Not everyone's wired to be a networker.
Jason Makevich:And, you know, you don't need to be salesy. It's not what it's about. It's about just wanting to meet people and get to know them and get to know what they do. I mean, if if you're if you're in a back of an Uber, are you talking to the Uber driver and getting to know who they are? Are you on your phone and not seeing a word the whole time?
Jason Makevich:That that tells you who you are. Right? I wanna I'm the guy that's talking to the Uber driver, and I would want someone on my team to be that guy too, you know, if they're gonna be out there networking.
Craig Zimmerman:That's a good California answer. New Yorkers. Don't get in the kit don't get in the car and talk to the driver. Sorry.
Jason Makevich:Get in a stranger's car and then talk to him. That's the world we live in now.
Rudy Rodriguez:Well, I I think both of you have demonstrated the value of partnering, and that's one of the things to to really discuss with people is the value that you bring to the table. And and that's it's a it's a great thing when you do build these relationships like you guys have built. I think that's really good because that that that brings value to your your individual companies and value to your customers as well.
Craig Zimmerman:And I think it goes to you know, we don't sell any products or services that we wouldn't use or don't use. I think the same holds true for partnering. Right? We don't if I wouldn't use Jason's company for us. If I wouldn't trust him for us, then I wouldn't say to a client, these are the guys.
Craig Zimmerman:Right? It's like we have another opportunity going on in New York. I know exactly the partner to call in New York. I already told our client because we're not gonna manage his firewall because it's not what we do. Right?
Craig Zimmerman:And he's like, well, can't you just nope. Because I don't wanna be the guy when your Internet doesn't work. Right? And you need a partner in New York where you are, and I have a partner to bring in who will do exactly that for him.
Rudy Rodriguez:Anthony, I'll turn it back to you.
Anthony Carrano:First of all, thank you. I mean, this this story was fantastic. You both got extensive, you know, amount of, you know, experience, like, with partnering. You know your swim lanes. So just doing a lot of, you know, good, things, you know, really right. Or at least, you know, if it's in Craig's case, it sounds like you're doing it right. Right, Craig?
Craig Zimmerman:Thanks, I think. Yeah.
Jason Makevich:Perception is everything.
Anthony Carrano:That's it. And, I'm just messing with you, Craig. I know I'm gonna probably find a way to kinda I'll pay for it here a little later. But, as executives, you know, in in your companies, what did you both learn that enabled your respective organizations to improve from this particular experience?
Craig Zimmerman:Good question. I I think that so, originally, I don't know that I was gonna meet Jason in Atlanta because I had been in New York and but I decided it was good to go to one meet Jason and see our client. Being on that trip was fantastic. I mean, not only did Jason and I get to spend some one on one time together and play credit card roulette, whole other story. But we did you know, we we met with the client.
Craig Zimmerman:And I think that, honestly, and not I mean, I I don't wanna take credit for this, but I think that being there, my being there because the client had so much trust in me, we which, like I said, took a long time to build. But I think my being there made it easier for Jason to close the business and for the client to really understand what they need. Right? So I think that was super important. So I definitely learned the on the on-site visit, well worth it.
Jason Makevich:Face to face is so important. It it makes a world of difference. And if there's yeah. I would say that's a big one. Right?
Jason Makevich:I mean, I don't I don't go to clients very often. I mean, honestly, the we have clients in my company I've never talked to ever. I have other people that have sold them on what they sell, and then they serve them. And so I haven't even met all our clients. For me to fly out to a client all that, because Craig introduced me.
Jason Makevich:And then I talked to them, and I recognize, like, there's a lot of opportunity here. There's a lot that they're gonna need to really get to know me and trust me in order to trust my company. This is only gonna work if I get out there and spend some time there, which is what I did. And then for Craig to come down and just get that face to face time. If there is one thing, it's that.
Jason Makevich:It's I we wouldn't have gotten the client had I not gone out there, and we try to do things remotely, which we could have done. Mhmm. You know, we wouldn't have gotten that client. They wouldn't be even if we did, they wouldn't be happy. And we yeah.
Jason Makevich:Being there, being face to face, having Craig there, if there's one takeaway, it would be that. It it does make a a a world of difference.
Craig Zimmerman:And I think it comes back again to know your audience. Right? Because I didn't say to Jason when we started this, I think you need to come here, you know, or or I'll meet you there. You know? It was his decision.
Craig Zimmerman:He saw where this was going, and he said, I think I need to make a trip. Mhmm. Which made perfect sense. Right? So I think we both had a learning experience from that.
Craig Zimmerman:And it comes back to the other thing of know your audience. Know your audience. Know your yeah. Know who you're talking to. Because with other clients, not a problem.
Craig Zimmerman:Like, the client in New York we were just discussing, when I say to him, this is the person I wanna bring, not a problem. He doesn't care. But in this case, it would have made all the difference in the world. And if they didn't personally like Jason, this particular client, if he didn't relate to Jason, it wouldn't have worked.
Jason Makevich:Yeah.
Anthony Carrano:Wow. That's awesome. That's awesome. Thanks, guys. That's really good.
Anthony Carrano:So, last last question. I know at the beginning, you know, you know, we were talking a little bit in preshow about you guys are doing some cool and interesting things, you know, in your companies. You've been holding out for about 45 minutes now. Let's hear it. What are some cool and interesting things you guys are doing?
Craig Zimmerman:Go ahead, Jason.
Jason Makevich:Oh, Yeah. I mean, I'm it's funny. I've had the company for about 15 years, and I feel like we're in startup mode again in a lot of ways. I mean, we're just, busier than ever. We're growing pretty quickly now.
Jason Makevich:And it's all because of the the transition that we've we've been making into, managed security services. Right? And what's really cool, I think, is the opportunity finally to not only partner with MSPs that we've been able to partner with certain things, or I'll use the term MSP loosely because, you know, like, big cloud, maybe is or is not an MSP, but they do elements of that with SharePoint and all that. So now we actually have MSP partners that that have come to us, so that we've talked to. We've had some relationships with different, you know, ones I'm good friends with with many, founders of different, you know, smaller MSPs.
Jason Makevich:But now we actually have MSPs that are bringing us into their clients, which we were an MSP. Like, that would have never happened. Right? Mhmm. And so now I'm getting to work with these folks that I really like, that I'm good friends with, and and they're bringing us into, to help them with the security.
Jason Makevich:And and they're they're happy. The clients are happy. It it's just turning into some really great, you know, win win sort of, situations. But that's that's kind of the coolest thing, I think, is being able to now I've been in the MSP space for 15 years, been in IT for 25, and just getting to now be partnering with the IT folks out there that are recognizing that cybersecurity is a beast. And to be great at IT and security is is a tall order.
Jason Makevich:And unless you're a pretty large company, you're gonna struggle.
Craig Zimmerman:And they're not good at it either. Large companies aren't good at it either.
Jason Makevich:Yeah. There's a lot that are really, really just not not cutting it out there. And so instead of trying to just grow products at the problem, which most MSPs are doing, you know, the the ones that are partnering with us, we love it, and it's working out great for them because we we we look at risk from a risk based approach rather than a product based approach. So it makes a a world of difference when when we're going to have the conversations with the clients as well as, curate the appropriate solutions for each client?
Craig Zimmerman:I would say for us, you know, our focus is definitely still SharePoint and Azure. We're doing a bunch of AVD work too, which is great because, I think clients are finally starting to see the value of the AVD. And so that's great. But I think that, you know, again, it comes back to partnering for us and making sure the clients get what they need.
Craig Zimmerman:Because for us, a lot of times, things will start out as SharePoint projects. That's how people find us or that's what we get referred for. And then depending on what it is, after that first project, they're like, oh, great. You can be our CSP. And now you can do this for us.
Craig Zimmerman:And now so, you know, it always comes down to, hey. Prove yourself. And then we'll take a further leap with you.
Anthony Carrano:Excellent. Excellent. And, how can people find out more information about you?
Craig Zimmerman:So for me, that's simple. I'm craig@bigcloudconsultants.com. And phone number is 828-348-1515. And our website, bigcloudconsultants.com
Jason Makevich:Yeah. You can't find me. I'm, out there. So good luck. I just did
Craig Zimmerman:a Google search. You should see what comes up.
Jason Makevich:Yeah. No. Definitely. I would love to hear from anyone. My email is jason@greenlight-is.com
Jason Makevich:And, yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn. My last name, m a k e v i c h, pretty unique. So not too hard to find me out there.
Anthony Carrano:And we'll have we'll have the, web addresses and your LinkedIn profile links in the show notes for people who wanna find out, just more information about, you know, Big Cloud consultants and, and Greenlight really appreciate you guys. This was fun. This was very, very informative. And you guys, once again, thank you.
Craig Zimmerman:Yeah. Thank you for having us.
Jason Makevich:Appreciate it.
Anthony Carrano:Well, that was fun. I really appreciate, Jason and Craig for being on with us today. I learned a lot, took away several really key practical things. Rudy, what were some things that you took away, from the episode today?
Rudy Rodriguez:Well, I I thought it was a great episode. And and some of the things that I learned from both these gentlemen and the that they exhibited was that as a member of IAMCP, you can meet, you you can meet partners, through meetings, either live or or online. And through that, you through networking with other partners, you can learn to build trust relationships with each other, and that'll help you in determining who are the partners that you wanna work with. So when a when a client brings you an opportunity, then you have the sources that you can go to to build that that you trust and then introduce them to the client and build a a bigger, deeper trust relationship with the client. So I think that's very important, and they taught us that, again, it could happen at the local level.
Rudy Rodriguez:It can happen at the regional or global level.
Anthony Carrano:Yeah. One of the things I appreciated too what Craig was saying, you know, on that note is, he mentioned about, like, with, you know, with IAMCP as as his trust network. And the phrase he said, look, that I know when I talked to a fellow IMCP member, they're gonna work the same way, have that that code of ethics, that we have. I I thought that was a great, you know, way to phrase that. What have you found just in your experience, you know, in IAMCP for many years?
Anthony Carrano:I mean, what have you found, like, when working with IMCP members versus not?
Rudy Rodriguez:Well, that trust relationship is real important. I've had great success building, lots of great networking relationships, throughout the years. And and they still exist today even though I'm no longer doing IT services. But the one thing was, I remember when we were starting the IAMCP, we worked hard on that code of ethics. We worked very, very hard on that code of ethics.
Rudy Rodriguez:And and that's what I still live by because that's how I ran my companies. You have to be accountable. You have to operate with high integrity. And and more importantly, you have to be able to communicate, what you want and what you want done. And and that's the one thing I've learned from from all the partnering that we do at IAMCP
Rudy Rodriguez:And over the years, we've built the resources and the courses to teach people that this is the best way to build those partnering relationships.
Craig Zimmerman:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Anthony Carrano:Yeah. And there was another point that was brought up a few times that really resonated with me when they kept using, the phrase, creating a raving fan. And especially, like, in this situation, I mean, it was a really difficult situation as customers and, you know, between being held hostage, you know, with their billing, data loss, holding up passwords, all I mean, what a mess. But how they came in and when he outlined, like, the steps that they took to take, you know, a a challenging customer who's, you know, in a really bad situation. Right?
Anthony Carrano:So you got kinda like this compounding and how then they created a raving fan out of them. And he and, you know, they talked about how it's important, number 1, to just to understand, you know, how the client's feeling, you know, try and, you know, see, you know, from their point of view, gain, you know, ultimately, to to understand what's important to them. Number 3 said, do the things you need to do to make them kinda feel better, solve their problem, alleviate that pain, you know, right away, and then number 4, continue to earn their trust. I thought that was fantastic. And, you know, to piggyback on both what they were saying and just even as as you mentioned here a little bit earlier is if the client trusts you, they're gonna keep coming back.
Anthony Carrano:And the the the comp the note I wrote down is that, you know, customers a good customer experience, right, is the best form of marketing.
Rudy Rodriguez:Exactly. Okay. So I wanna thank all of you for joining us on this episode of IMCP profiles in partnership powered by Duenamis Marketing. We hope you enjoyed the podcast and find it useful and inspiring. If you did, please subscribe, rate, and review us on your favorite podcast platform.
Rudy Rodriguez:And don't forget to follow us on social media and connect with us on our website at iamcp.org, where you can find more information, resources, and opportunities to partner for success. One of the best ways to partner for success is to join the IAMCP, a community of Microsoft partners who help each other grow and thrive. IAMCP members can find and connect with other partners locally and even globally to access exclusive resources and opportunities. Whether you're looking for new customers, new markets, or new solutions, IAMCP can help you achieve your goals. To learn more, visit the IAMCP website at iamcp.org.
